Dan, Dan, Dan. I’ve been thinking you are the one who has been getting testier when challenged, compared to earlier days. Of course it’s a joke when I use the word “infinite” to describe your “arrogance” at knowing things I don’t think you can know, when we have been arguing about understanding INFINITY ITSELF! You can’t possibly believe I really think your (unwarranted, IMO) confidence in your convictions is actually infinite. (I would not waste my time trying to convince you of anything at all if I thought that.)
I have to at least wonder at whether you are joking when you seem to suggest that I have not even seriously attempted to make my point about God being not just a clock-maker, but perhaps intimately involved in the universe, since I have talked about: (a) God being in and through the universe and us living “in Him” as at least suggesting that the universe is somewhat synonymous with God…that the universe is imbued with Conciousness, the Consciousness of God, and our consciousness, and the angels, etc. (b) scriptures that say God continually upholds the creation by the word of his power; (c) I have talked about how there is nowhere that scripture says God created all things “out of nothing” (indeed, out of Himself would be more accurate…in Him we exist), but rather that he has “made/fashioned” everything that is and has ever been and ever will be without regard to any beginning or end; (d) which means the universe does not need to have a beginning at all, as it is the Creator’s everlasting and conscious work (was there ever a time when God was not creating? And, yes, I use the word time because no one can intelligently speak about the absence of time/progression without making something sound static/dead); (e) serious questions about how life everlasting will be accomplished in a universe that is doomed to have a certain and inescapable heat death, making any form of life-energy impossible (although I’m fairly certain you will say it will be a “new creation” and God will just keep making new creations as needed, or ones where entropy does not rule all, and I’m also fairly certain that you will not see any irony to making such escapist arguments to win your point).
There is no conversation I can hope to have with someone who believes they understand infinity so thoroughly that they easily make all kinds of pronouncements about it with no hesitations or doubts whatsoever. You do do that, Dan; I am not making that part up. You don’t attempt to prove how you understand that infinity is a closed system subject to entropy (even if God is both WITHIN and THE SOURCE OF the infinite universe…a universe imbued with Consciousness) you simply assert that it must be, and say there is no argument that can be made against it. So I have to give up trying to go further when you make statements like that.
At least I can recognize a joke without taking offense:
Michael_Nicholson:
Perhaps God was “twiddling his thumbs” in boredom, idk.
Perhaps he was, as Augustine suggested, creating hell for people who ask questions like “what was God doing before he created all things?”
I cannot prove beyond doubt that the scripture passage that talks about God having “measured the heavens” is not a proof text whose interpretation is meant to be that the universe is finite. On the other hand, I don’t think you can prove that it is! There are many more obvious interpretations.
I cannot prove lots of things. But I can show how some things that are unprovable EITHER WAY can be just as possible as an alternate interpretation. And I do assert, that I am not the one most commonly saying that what I propose is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to interpret things. As I read back over these past days, I have to say with all sincerity that it is you who most often does that, Dan. You don’t have to admit that or agree that I am right about that. But as I look back, that is what I see.
Sincerely
Michael