Dan,
I do believe we will end up in a disagreement on this particular subject. However, your research would indicate that after 23 years (really that long?) I have my own level of obstinacy. ![wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png](http://discourse-spareoom.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/original/1X/d4a5053d861a9005d99c6ee09b39012412651c0f.png){kind=small}
It’s why I wanted to move the list to a web-based forum–so it would be easy to search the archives. And it could be longer than that; what I have from Merelewis is very fragmentary.
I have always considered this section about Puddleglum to be similar to Lewis’s comment in ‘Mere Christianity’, where he says:
“If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.”
Puddleglum - along with the children - has been enchanted, i.e., he should no longer be able to reason for himself. Yet in spite of the queen’s apparent rational explanations that her’s is the real world, her world cannot meet his desire.
We also need to remember that Lewis is not only writing fiction, he is writing fiction for children. Taking complex ideas and attempting to simplify them can easily lead to misunderstanding.
But an interesting topic, and thanks to all who have contributed.
Eric.
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Hi, Elaine,
Good to see your name and good question. Good, because, for me, it gets to the point that Lewis is making, fictionally. What is the way out of the doubts and disbelief that can lull, or even overtake our minds, wills, and hearts? Satan is ever on the lookout for a way to make truth seem not real. (The Great Divorce comes to mind. Theological discussion? Apologetics? There is as much power in that as in the sermon I am wont to preach to myself when tempted to prefer my own good over that of another’s. (No, dear. Sit still. I’ll get the phone.") Silly example but you asked for one from daily life. I have never faced a choice of obedience that I knew would inflict bodily harm and pain. That day may come. But all day long, I choose to prefer others in love over my own comfort and convenience. Puddleglum’s action, coming from his heart, is an extreme example of what we are all called to do–die to ourselves. No matter how “unreal” our belief in God and His Son, Christ Jesus, may seem, may feel, at the moment, we are called to act anyway. Only obedience, empowered by God, brings clarity and oh, such joy!
Again, from Lewis’s Anthology of excerpts from George Macdonald–quoted from memory because it would take too long to find…MacDonald writes,
"That man is blessed who can look out on a landscape from which every vestige of God has disappeared, and still say, “I believe.”
That is what Puddleglum’s action says: I believe. One does not stick a foot into a hot fire if one does not believe. All his typical marshwiggle expressions but draw the action in sharp relief.
Russel, honestly, I feel that to turn this powerful image into a theological statement is to turn away from what Lewis is doing, failing to simply receive it. It is humbling. It is convicting. It inspires. It helps me obey.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Lois
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Lois,
My concern is not theological, but more evangelical. It is a common trope among non-believers that “faith is believing something you know is not true.” My problem comes from the observation that many non-believers get this idea from Christians. I understand the Puddleglum is a hero. He is inspirational. All in all, Puddleglum is a great character. Still, to say “I’m going to follow God even if there is no god.” is a dangerous example. Granted, the book was written for children, and they will not see most of the things discussed in this forum (that’s a good thing), but those of us who are not children need to be mindful of the examples we set.
And, if anyone is wondering, I do believe that C.S.Lewis could have stumbled in his communication from time to time.
Excellent points Lois!
Ann
Right, Eric!
Ann
.
.
Well, Russel, you’ve certainly livened things up around here. Thanks for that!
Now if this statement of Puddleglum’s were, say, in the context of his holding a TEDx talk on religion, then your conclusion could be a correct one. But, as others have pointed out, the context is in fact a fictional propaganda barrage by a person (the witch) who is more powerful and intelligent than Puddleglum and the others.
So Puddleglum’s words are not “a clear statement of willingness to believe something that is not true”, but of trust in a truth that has withstood his every test to date, and an obstinate refusal to accept the witch’s argument that lions and suns etc. don’t exist, no matter how persuasive her arguments sound under the current barrage of enchantment. Puddleglum admits the possibility that the witch may be right “even if there is no…” etc. but is not prepared to reconsider his position under that kind of emotional pressure.
If you look up Faith in Goffar you will see that Lewis wrote a lot on the subject. There is an essay that nobody has mentioned yet, so I’ll venture it myself:
Christian Reflections > Religion: Reality or Substitute? > last 2 1/2 pages
In my Fount Paperback edition of 1981 the first passage is at the bottom of page 61.
Lewis writes [insertions mine]
For in general we [Christians] are shy of speaking about Faith as a virtue. It looks so like praising an intention to believe what you want to believe in the face of evidence to the contrary: the American in the old story defined Faith as ‘the power of believing what we know to be untrue’. Now I define Faith as the power of continuing to believe what we once honestly thought to be true until cogent reasons for honestly changing our minds are brought before us.
… jumping 1 1/2 pages that are worth reading …
There is nothing we cannot be made to believe or disbelieve. [e.g. under circumstances like those of P and the children, or a Chinese Uyghur “re-education” camp] If we wish to be rational, not now and then, but constantly, we must pray for the gift of Faith, for the power to go on believing not in the teeth of reason but in the teeth of lust and terror and jealousy and boredom and indifference that which reason, authority, or experience, or all three have once delivered to us for truth.
So to paraphrase that second paragraph: Puddleglum, I believe, is displaying the power to go on believing not in the teeth of the truth but in the teeth of seduction and enchantment that which his personal experience had once delivered to him for truth.
Under the Mercy,
Peter
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I agree with others - thank you Russell for provoking such a lively discussion!
It’s fun to see Lewis citations coming through s well.
When I spoke of Puddleglum speaking hypothetically, maybe a better way to explain it would have been to say: I can well imagine having a conversation with a non-believer where I say, “ok, let’s say you’re right. There is no God, there is no heaven…”
Both the other person and I are fully aware that I believe in God, and heaven: it is simply a premise I am willing to entertain so as to consider the ramifications of their point of view.
I too am inordinately grateful for this group and that the archives have been saved!
Blessings,
Angela
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To Russel:
Well, nonbelievers sure didn’t get that idea from Lewis who is very clear that either Christianity is true or it is not worth bothering about.
I, too, have some quarrels with Lewis as a theologian, which he was not and never claimed to be. But he excelled in writing true myth (truth in another form) and that is how we need to read Narnia.
I do see your point, but we have to hear Puddleglum’s words in character, and in the circumstances of having a spell cast upon him. In effect he is saying, “It may be true, but I’m not buying it. I’m not giving up what I have. It sure beats what you are offering.” And then he suits the action to his words. I believe this is the only right way to read Lewis here. Puddleglum never stops believing, but he is fighting the power of the Witch, and knows that argument is useless. Action is called for.
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Lurking since, 2001 ish but glad to see Puddlegum and group still together and offering insight and debate tinged with kindness going strong,
Cheers,
~Gene, NY
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Lois.
This reminds me of the part in Perelandra where Ransom realizes that the time for argument is over, and action needed to be taken.
Blessings
Roy
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Just got here! Good discussion.
My two cents.
This is faith, not believing the untrue, but believing in spite of
doubts that are instilled by Evil.
Doubt in itself is not sin; it is a challenge and must be addressed by
faith. The reward is a strengthening of faith, and a deeper
understanding of our God.
Who among us does not know the depths of spiritual pain? What is our
response to it? Puddleglum’s response, while simple, is a shining
example of what it can and should be. We are not merely rational; we are
also emotional. And our emotions need to be directed. The direction must
always be towards our God, and that will settle any doubts, and
reinforce our faith.
Carolyn in Oz
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Yes indeed. We need to remember that we are not only rational creatures, but emotional.
Carolyn in Oz
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Having a little trouble with my email cliient sending stuff to the wrong destinations. I hope this hasn’t come in several times!
Just got here! Good discussion.
My two cents.
This is faith, not believing the untrue, but believing in spite of doubts that are instilled by Evil.
Doubt in itself is not sin; it is a challenge and must be addressed by faith. The reward is a strengthening of faith, and a deeper understanding of our God.
Who among us does not know the depths of spiritual pain? What is our response to it? Puddleglum’s response, while simple, is a shining example of what it can and should be. We are not merely rational; we are also emotional. And our emotions need to be directed. The direction must always be towards our God, and that will settle any doubts, and reinforce our faith.
Carolyn in Oz
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